Questions & Answers

This is a discussion page set up for CFDA Certified Range Officers and those interested in attending or setting up a CFDA Range Officer Course.
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Quick Cal
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Questions & Answers

Post by Quick Cal » February 26th, 2012, 9:24 am

Howdy Gunslingers,

We had requests for a place to post the many questions we receive and the answers to those questions. This will allow a lot of our members to review questions and answers that they may also have. I can think of no better place than a thread on the Range Officer Forum to carry this out.

If anyone has a question that they would like answered regarding range procedures, rules or just general CFDA topics, please post them on this thread and we will try to answer them a.s.a.p.. You are also welcome to send me an email at quickcal@cowboyfastdraw.com and I can answer it directly.

If using an email you may state that you don't mind if your name is used. If you don't specifically state that, I may still post the questions and answers here, but I will remove your name.

We have a policy against releasing emails publicly without permission of the author, we consider an email a private letter unless otherwise stated in the email or letter.

Have Fun!

Quick Cal
Hit'em Fast!
Quick Cal, Director of CFDA
CFDA Life Member #2
Founder Great Basin Gun Hawks, CFD Club
Founder High Plains Drifters, SASS Club

SASS Life #2707 &
2011 Inductee SASS Hall of Fame

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Quick Cal
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Re: Questions & Answers

Post by Quick Cal » February 26th, 2012, 9:29 am

Howdy,

I believe that the wording in #20 through #24 covers all scenarios that can happen during a bye round. They probably should be put in context with each other rather than stand alone.

20. In the case of an odd number of contestants in a round, the last three drawn will shoot a by-round. The “By” can be shot any time during a regular round. Each of the three contestants will fire one shot, preferably all at the same time, elimination style if enough lanes exist. The contestant with the fastest shot will win the by-round. The remaining two will be paired to shoot a regular round.

This established what a bye-round is.

21. If two shooters tie with winning shots in a by-round, only those two shooters will re-shoot to break the tie.

This can mean if they tie in an actual shot or if they both miss during a bye-shot and the other shooter commits a loss of round violation.

22. If one or two shooters have a Loss of Shot Violation, they automatically lose the by-round and will shoot the regular round.

If Shooter A has a loss of shot penalty during a bye shot, the penalty would automatically put them in a spot in having to shoot the regular round, against the loser of Shooters B & C during the bye shot. If B & C tie during that shot by either shooting identical times or both missing, then they would shoot off to see who would be matched in the regular round against Shooter A

If Shooters A & B both have a loss of shot penalty during a bye shot, they both would be put in the regular round, and Shooter C would win the bye shot by default no matter whether Shooter C hit the target or not.


23. If all three shooters have a violation they will re-shoot the by-round.

If Shooters A, B & C all commit a loss of shot penalty then they all would have tied and have to reshoot.

24. If one shooter has a Loss of Round Violation, they will automatically receive an “X” and the other two shooters will receive a “W.”

Since there is normally only one "X" issued in a bye round, that means that the bye round is over and there is no need for the other two to shoot a regular round. However, if one, two or even all three shooters commit a Loss of Round Penalty they will all receive an "X" for that round. I've never seen that happen, but there is that possibility. Could be all 3 have a boot shot or something crazy like that.

I do believe that the wording covers it and there is no need to change it.

Hope that answers your question.

Hit'em Fast,

Quick Cal

Subject: Guidelines
To: Quick Cal
Date: Saturday, February 25, 2012, 12:59 PM

I let our members know the New Guidelines were on the web Thursday night. I have received questions about the By Round section. Page 19 # 22. One or two shooters.? Should it just say.
If two shooters? I see on the web, you have already sent the guidelines off to the printer. Sorry to bug you on the weekend.
Thanks
XXXXXXXXX (Removed to protect privacy)
Hit'em Fast!
Quick Cal, Director of CFDA
CFDA Life Member #2
Founder Great Basin Gun Hawks, CFD Club
Founder High Plains Drifters, SASS Club

SASS Life #2707 &
2011 Inductee SASS Hall of Fame

Benefactor Life Member NRA
Deacon
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Re: Questions & Answers

Post by Deacon » February 28th, 2012, 8:37 am

Question: We have 5 shooter on the line, shooters 3-4-5 are going to shoot a by the shooter on lane # 2 did not understand this was to be for lanes 3-4-5 only and draws and shoots on the light. Is this an accidental discharge which has a loss of round or a loss of shoot ?????

Deacon
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Re: Questions & Answers

Post by Mongo » February 28th, 2012, 8:55 am

Here is an interesting scenario from a BY round shot at a jackpot match last year:

Commands are given.
Shooter B anticipates and jumps the light.

Shooter A & C react to shooter B's anticipation and also draw before the light.

Shooter A drops his gun.

Shooter C shoots down the boot.

Shooter B realizes what he's done and doesn't get a shot off.

Hmmm??

It was ruled that shooter B wins the BY round because shooters A & C both committed safety violations by dropping a gun and shooting down the boot - both of which carry a loss of round penalty. Shooter B's anticipation is only a loss of shot.

I like talking to myself cause I always get the answer I want from Me!

We ride for the brand!

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Quick Cal
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Re: Questions & Answers

Post by Quick Cal » February 29th, 2012, 10:13 pm

Postby Deacon » February 28th, 2012, 8:37 am
Question: We have 5 shooter on the line, shooters 3-4-5 are going to shoot a by the shooter on lane # 2 did not understand this was to be for lanes 3-4-5 only and draws and shoots on the light. Is this an accidental discharge which has a loss of round or a loss of shoot ?????

Deacon


Howdy Deacon,

That's a tough one and a situation that would require some judgement on the part of the Range Master.
1st: Actually an (AD) Accidental Discharge is covered in the Safety Violation section and would be penalized by a loss of round, not just loss of shot.
Here's the rule:
6. Discharging a round while loading, unloading, or practice drawing (dry firing) on the firing line. Penalty: 1st Loss of Round, 2nd Match DQ.

The question I have is was it just a misunderstanding, because the Range Master or Timer Operator Announcer did not give clear enough instructions? Maybe they did, but the shooter didn't hear it because they are hard of hearing or have solid ear plugs in. Obviously the communication broke down somewhere.

In this case, the shooter obviously thought that the light was meant for him. Did he actually do something that was unsafe? Does it warrant receiving an immediate "X". The rule stated above really does pertain to someone either losing control or recklessly handling their firearm; and any of these violations should draw an immediate "X" (Loss of Round). This was an intentional discharge due to a misunderstanding of the Range Commands; and is not in the same category as an accidental discharge. Therefore, judgement is required to make the penalty fit the offense since it is not clearly spelled out in the rulebook.

I wasn't there to witness the actual situation and apply the judgement needed. Knowing what I do know, I would probably classify it as a Technical Violation and give them a warning, since Procedural Violations are more tuned to actual competitive firing line situations. Was a mistake made? Yes, so it must be acknowledged, but I don't believe it was a true Safety Violation.

Answer: 1st offense is a warning.

Thanks,

Quick Cal
Hit'em Fast!
Quick Cal, Director of CFDA
CFDA Life Member #2
Founder Great Basin Gun Hawks, CFD Club
Founder High Plains Drifters, SASS Club

SASS Life #2707 &
2011 Inductee SASS Hall of Fame

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Re: Questions & Answers

Post by Quick Cal » February 29th, 2012, 10:32 pm

Question:
Post by Mongo » February 28th, 2012, 7:55 am
Here is an interesting scenario from a BY round shot at a jackpot match last year:

Commands are given.
Shooter B anticipates and jumps the light.

Shooter A & C react to shooter B's anticipation and also draw before the light.

Shooter A drops his gun.

Shooter C shoots down the boot.

Shooter B realizes what he's done and doesn't get a shot off.
Hmmm??

It was ruled that shooter B wins the BY round because shooters A & C both committed safety violations by dropping a gun and shooting down the boot - both of which carry a loss of round penalty. Shooter B's anticipation is only a loss of shot.


Howdy Mongo,
Just another case of we simply cannot write a rulebook to cover every scenario....

In this case I agree with the ruling that was made here and the reasoning behind it.

The rules below cover this for the most part. Although if someone just read #23, they could try to make the case that everyone should re-shoot. The problem is a loss of Round Violation ends that round immediately for the person(s) that it applies to. Technically Shooter B could re-shoot, but his opponents can not, therefore, Shooter B would win by default.

22. If one or two shooters have a Loss of Shot Violation, they automatically lose the by- round and will shoot the regular round.
23. If all three shooters have a violation they will re-shoot the by-round.
24. If one shooter has a Loss of Round Violation, they will automatically receive an “X” and the other two shooters will receive a “W.”


Thanks,

Quick Cal
Hit'em Fast!
Quick Cal, Director of CFDA
CFDA Life Member #2
Founder Great Basin Gun Hawks, CFD Club
Founder High Plains Drifters, SASS Club

SASS Life #2707 &
2011 Inductee SASS Hall of Fame

Benefactor Life Member NRA
Mongo
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Re: Questions & Answers

Post by Mongo » March 1st, 2012, 8:00 am

Thanks Quick Cal. It was an interesting situation and everyone involved agreed with the ruling.

I like talking to myself cause I always get the answer I want from Me!

We ride for the brand!

CFDA Life #57
US Marshal San Juan Shootists
email:sanjuanshootists@hotmail.com
Visit us at http://www.sanjuanshootists.com
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Re: Questions & Answers

Post by Ringo » March 30th, 2012, 9:31 am

Cal!!

A question has come up from some of our folks asking for claification and intent behind the inclusion of 38's in Cowboy Fast Draw matches. There is some worry about that being a "camels nose in the tent" for inclusion of 38's in future CFD competitions other than Class D events. Maybe an explanation of the reasons for it's mention in the 7th Edition of the Guidelines and the Gazette would help clarifying the CFDA's intent and concerns. Maybe some insight of why it's a liability concern and not an opening of the gate. And also why there is NO advantage of anyone using 38's in competition over shotgun primered 45's.
Thanks!!!
" RIDIN' FOR THE BRAND"

"Ringo"

aka Jeff Duncan
Founder/ Old Dominion Fast Draw
CFDA Regulator, U.S. Marshal
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Re: Questions & Answers

Post by Quick Cal » March 30th, 2012, 10:45 pm

Howdy Ringo,

It became necessary to make a statement on velocities generated by shotgun primers behind .38s, simply because many Town Folk Alleys are held at SASS events. This is only for Class D Sanctioned Events which are by nature introductory into the sport of Cowboy Fast Draw. If any caliber less than .45 colt is used in Class D Events, they must only be propelled by pistol primers. A .45 shotgun primer load moves about 650 fps; a .38 with a lead-free large pistol primer has a velocity of about 550 fps, with shotgun primers .38s have velocities approaching 1,000 fps. Therefore, there certainly is no advantage gained in velocity and .38 Colts and Rugers are actually heavier than their .45 counterparts.

There will never be a place for .38s in Class A, B or C Events. If folks get interested in the sport and want to get involved in anything higher than a club level contest they will need to acquire a .45 colt cartridge pistol, plain and simple.

In some other western shooting sports. 38s became the dominant caliber because the ammunition could be "loaded down" to reduce recoil and therefore gain a competitive advantage. Some even went to .32s! That will never happen in CFDA. Also, since hosts supply ammunition in Titled Championships it would be crazy to have to supply various calibers, while attempting to keep velocities on a level playing field.

So there is no door opening here, there is only accommodation of those who would like to try the sport in limited venues without purchasing a new firearm. We are also making our clubs aware that velocities with .38s using shotgun primers for Town Folk Alleys is not acceptable.

Hope that answers your question...

Quick Cal
Hit'em Fast!
Quick Cal, Director of CFDA
CFDA Life Member #2
Founder Great Basin Gun Hawks, CFD Club
Founder High Plains Drifters, SASS Club

SASS Life #2707 &
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Shane
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Re: Questions & Answers

Post by Shane » March 31st, 2012, 4:48 am

I personally don't think .38's should be allowed in Cowboy Fast Draw at any level. Just my opinion.
Shane
aka James Casteel
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